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On 29–30 September 1941, members of Sonderkommando 4a of Einsatzgruppe C, under the command of SS-Standartenführer Paul Blobel, together with personnel from the headquarters of Einsatzgruppe C and two battalions of Police Regiment South, massacred the Jews of Kyiv at the Babyn Yar ravine. The victims were ordered to report for supposed resettlement, forced to surrender their belongings and undress, and then taken in groups into the ravine, where they were shot. According to Einsatzgruppen Operational Situation Report No. 106, 33,771 Jews were murdered over the two days.In August–September 1943, as part of Sonderaktion 1005, approximately 300 prisoners from the Syrets camp were forced to exhume and burn the bodies from the mass graves at Babyn Yar in an attempt to destroy evidence of the killings.

At Babyn Yar, members of Einsatzgruppe C force groups of Jews to hand over their possessions and undress before being shot in the ravine. Near Kyiv, Soviet Union, 29 or 30 September 1941.

Some description.

From Lithuanian into EnglishYahad in Unum: What year were you born in?Witness: In 1932; on the 16th of February.Y.U.: Where were you born?Witness: In Seirijai. I was born in Seirijai, grew up in Seirijai, and I am going to die in Seirijai.Y.U.: Were you born in this house?Witness: No, I built this house myself. I was born in a Jewish house, and I socialized with Jews all the time. We built this house together with my wife.Y.U.: What was the occupation of your parents before the war?Witness: I don’t remember my father at all. My mother was raising us and working for farmers and Jews.Y.U.: Why don’t you remember your father? Did he die early?Witness: He left us. I knew a little about him, but we didn’t communicate.Y.U.: Did you have brothers or sisters?Witness: I had a brother and a sister. My brother was born in 1932, but he is dead now. My sister lives in Veisiejai with her family.Y.U.: Were you the eldest child?Witness: No, my brother was the eldest. I am the second child, and my sister is the youngest.Y.U.: So your brother was one year older, wasn’t he?Witness: He was born in 1930 and was two years older than me.Y.U.: And your sister?Witness: She was born in 1934.Wife: In 1939.Witness: Oh, I am sorry, she was born in 1939.Y.U.: What nationalities lived in Seirijai before the war?Witness: Most of the population was Jewish. There were some Gypsies as well.Wife: There were Germans too.Witness: Yes, there were many Germans. They were craftsmen. Lithuania didn’t have its own craftsmen, so all the Germans had work and lived comfortably. But most of the population was Jewish.Wife: Later the Germans left to Germany.Y.U.: I am sorry, but we need silence on the background.Witness: When Hitler was preparing for the war, he took all the Germans back to Germany.Y.U.: So they left before the war, didn’t they?Witness: Yes, just before the arrival of the Russians. A number of Poles also lived here.Y.U.: Did the Gypsies have their own homes here or they were travelling around by carts?Witness: There was a Gypsy family of Kasparavičiai who had a small hut. But they used to stay in it only during the winter. At the other time, they travelled around the villages trying to get or steal something.Y.U.: Did the Gypsies practice any crafts?Witness: No, they didn’t work and enjoyed a free life. They would prepare some firewood and live in that hut during the winter. In summer, they would leave and travel around the villages.Y.U.: Were the Gypsies dressed differently than other people?Witness: Women wore very long skirts, they loved different colors. Men wore regular pants and jackets.Y.U.: Did Kasparavičiai have many children?Witness: I can’t remember precisely, but I think they had four children: two stout sons and two small girls.Y.U.: And speaking in general, did Gypsies have more children than others?Witness: I don’t know. Kasparavičiai was the only family who lived here, although more Gypsies used to come here in winter. They rarely stayed here in summer; maybe just several of them did.Y.U.: Did Kasparavičiai live in your neighborhood?Witness: They lived 100 meters after the intersection. I socialized both with Jewish and Gypsy children. There is a fir tree growing in memory of the Gypsies.Y.U.: Were there many Jewish children in Seirijai?Witness: It would be hardly possible to count them all up. There were more Jews than Lithuanians. This street was inhabited only by Jews, the same as the whole Vytauto street, starting from the intersection. In general, there were many Jews. Seirijai had a very convenient location, because travelers had to pass through it on their way to Leipalingis, Sejny and Lazdijai. There were many Jewish merchants; most of them had shops and developed trading business. Lithuanians worked for them. Jews called them not Lithuanians, but goys. Lithuanians made a living by working for Jews. It would be impossible to count up all the Jews who lived here.Y.U.: Did Jews have any other occupations apart from shop-keeping?Witness: Most of them had shops.Y.U.: Were there any Jewish craftsmen, millers, tailors, etc.?Witness: Yes, Cvilingas owned a factory which produced various farming machinery. They had a foundry in Alytus. The parts were produced there and brought here for assembly. I don’t know the exact number or workers he employed, but it was around 50, according to the people. All the workers were Lithuanians, while Jews were the managers. It was the factory of Cvilingai family. When the Germans came, they bombed and burned it down.Y.U.: Were there any Jewish tailors or shoemakers?Witness: Most of the shoemakers were Jews, but there were not so many Jewish tailors. There was also a leather factory owned by Jews; a forest grows there now. They used to buy up leather and process it in the factory. Some Jews were farmers; they owned much land. Garbarskas was a big landowner. Seirijai manor belonged to him. There were also Jewish doctors and teachers. Jews had their own school.Y.U.: Garbarskas, was he a Jew?Witness: Yes. There were two Jewish doctors in Seirijai: Finkelis and Garbarskas. There were also several Jewish dentists.Y.U.: Did Lithuanian and Jewish children go to the same school?Witness: No. Jews built their own school, as well as two churches. One of them was for the elderly, while the second was for the young people. They didn’t mix as we did. We didn’t study together. There were Jewish teachers and a Jewish school.Y.U.: Where was the Jewish school located?Witness: Our Lithuanian school was located near the intersection, and it is still there. The Jewish school was the fourth building behind the church. It was located at some distance from the street.Y.U.: Were the synagogues located in the center of the town?Witness: No, they were located down this street, 50 meters apart from each other. The one for the youth was located lower down the street and the one for the elderly a little higher. You still can see the foundation of the synagogue for the youth which burned down.Y.U.: Were the synagogues wooden or brick-built?Witness: They were wooden. They both burned down during the war, because the Germans bombed Seirijai heavily. Maybe they knew that many Jews lived in the town and burned it for that reason. Seirijai was rebuilt after the war.Y.U.: Did men and women go to the synagogue together?Witness: Young men and women went to the synagogue for the youth, but the one for the elderly was attended only by old people. We were curious children, and we went to see not only the shooting, but the synagogues as well. Jewish weddings usually took place in the synagogue for the youth, while funerals were usually held in the one for the elderly. One Jewish man drowned in the lake, for example. The bodies of dead Jews were not put in coffins, but were buried in bags. In the cemetery, the bottom and sides of the pit would be covered with boards, and the bag with the body would be placed inside; then the pit would be covered with boards and earth on the top.Y.U.: Where was the cemetery?Witness: Not far from here. It would be 300-500 meters away, if you take the highway to Alytus.Y.U.: So women didn’t go to the synagogue for the elderly, did they?Witness: Both men and women went there, but the elderly and the youth attended two different synagogues. Jews also had a tradition similar to our Christmas Eve, but they didn’t have dinner at home. Instead, they built so-called kuchkas of fir branches and ate in them.Y.U.: In shelters made of fir branches?Witness: They were temporary structures and were dismantled after the holidays.Y.U.: Wasn’t it cold to eat in such shelters?Witness: I don’t know. They didn’t stay in them for long. But while they were there, I and other Lithuanians used to go around the shelters saying a special prayer. We got some food and money for that. I still remember that prayer.Y.U.: Can you say it?Witness: <<<Says a prayer in Jewish>>>Y.U.: Do you know what it means?Witness: It is a wish: “I wish you good Purim, I wish you good Purim. Give me several cents, and I will go away.”Y.U.: So that holiday is called Purim, isn’t it?Witness: Yes, Purim.Y.U.: How did Jews and their children celebrate it?Witness: They prepared a dinner and called it kuchka. They went back home after it. I don’t know what they did at home, because we didn’t go there to watch. They used to make dumplings, like we also did; it was their holiday tradition. They boiled or fried them and then rolled them in sugar. Jews offered us to try them sometimes; they were very tasty.Y.U.: Did they cook those dumplings only for the kuchkas?Witness: Yes. They used to eat a lot of different food, but not pork. They didn’t like pigs. If you would start quarrelling with a Jew, he would try to be first to call you a pig, so that you wouldn’t do that.Y.U.: Did you happen to attend a Jewish funeral?Witness: Yes. I have never attended funeral ceremonies in the church, but we used to go to the cemetery. We were curious children. Jews never carried the bodies of the deceased; instead, the bodies were transported by carts pulled by horses. The Jews would walk beside.The assistant of the rabbi would carry a box for money. He would shake it and say: <<<A phrase in Yiddish>>>. That means: “Donate for the deceased.” The rest of the Jews would put money in that box. I don’t know what that money was meant for. There was also a Jewish tradition to strangle a seriously sick patient if he was suffering much. They would put a pillow on his face and hold it until he dies.Y.U.: Do you remember any names of the Jews who were buried in the cemetery?Witness: I remember several of them: Kovalskis, Nisinas, Asockis, Šepšelis, Cvilingas... Their names were inscribed on the gravestones, but we were not able to read in their language.Y.U.: How did you come to be born in a Jewish house?Witness: My mother lived alone and worked for Jews. Before coming here, she lived with her parents near Lazdijai. When her parents died, I and my brother were already born, and she decided to move to Seirijai, because many Jews lived here, so she could earn a living by working for them. There was a Jewish man Kopūstas who had a house divided into two parts. He lived in one part of the house and let my mother occupy a room in the other part. We settled and lived there until the war started and the house burned down.Y.U.: Did Kopūstas have children?Witness: Yes, he had a boy and a girl: Dobruškė and Šimkė.Y.U.: Did you play with them?Witness: No, they were older than me. But there were a lot of other children in the neighborhood. We were friends, but fought sometimes. We were children, you must understand.Y.U.: What was the occupation of Kopūstas?Witness: He produced ice-cream during the summer and baked matzos for their feast similar to Easter. He had an oven and huge tables. Lithuanian women were hired to make matzos there. If a matzo cracked, they gave it to children; we used to go there to taste them. Jews were very religious. They didn’t work on holidays, and even called goys to tear off a piece of paper for them when they went to the toilet. Kerosene lamps were used back then, and Jews called goys to light them. We used to wander around the streets and earn several cents like that. Their holiday started on Friday evening, and Saturday was the Sabbath, the holy day. Sunday was a working day for them; their shops were open on that day.Y.U.: Do you remember more families your mother worked for?Witness: I remember Levinas, Vazbuckė, Kuperšmeta, Beršikas. It wasn‘t a permanent job. If a Jew needed some water to be brought, my mother went to do that. The streets were divided according to their plots. If a Jew needed his part of the street to be cleaned, my mother went to do that. She used to clear snow as well. Jews used to socialize only among themselves, while goys were considered as black people who could come and do the work. If they would ask me to come, for example, and I wouldn‘t come on the agreed time, they would search for another worker next time. My mother wasn‘t always on time, because she worked for several Jews simultaneously, so they dismissed her sometimes. There were a great number of unemployed people in the times of Smetona. I can understand Jews, because if they hadn‘t cleared the street, they would have been fined by policeman Gumbaravičius, who was a very mean person. So Jews tried to save their money and make the goys do the job properly and in due time.Y.U.: Was there viršaitis (chief of a rural district) in Seirijai?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Was he Lithuanian?Witness: Yes, his surname was Maskeliūnas. There was a chief of police as well. There were seniūnai (heads of local administration) too. The government was present, and public servicewas very attractive in the times of Smetona. Everyone wanted to become a road guard, because this position was much respected.Y.U.: What was the duty of road guards?Witness: Roads were not asphalted back then, so road guards had to put gravel on the road. Farmers were obliged to bring a certain amount of gravel to road guards. They would bring a pile of it, and the road guard would gravel the road when it is slippery. I remember they used special triangular devices pulled by six horses to clear the snow from the roads.Y.U.: Did Jews have their own government?Witness: No, but there were some Jews among seniūnai. There was only one viršaitis and one chief of police; they both were Lithuanians. Jews had no their own government.Y.U.: Didn’t they organize meetings?Witness: They used to gather to discuss their own affairs, but they had no their own government.Y.U.: Do you remember the name of the chief of police?Witness: Gumbaravičius. I also remember policemen Jaskelevičius and Valenta.Y.U.: Valenta and who?Witness: Jaskelevičius.Y.U.: Were there any cultural or political organizations in Seirijai?Witness: There was nothing like that, maybe only amateur groups for students at school. Jews had their school on the ground floor of a two-story building and used to organize public dancing parties and acting performances on the upper floor. Some artists used to come, Uncle Bean among them. He used to come with his dogs, but Jews asked much money for using their hall.Y.U.: Were there any political organizations?Witness: There were “Young Lithuanians”, Scouts similar to Soviet Pioneers and some organization for the elderly, but it was secret, so nobody knew about it. Maybe adults knew, but children didn’t.Y.U.: Was there a Riflemen’s organization?Witness: Yes, there was an organization of Lithuanian Riflemen, and pharmacist Vaicekauskas was their leader. They were not armed all the time, but they used to take arms from the lockups during the inspections or for training. When the Soviets came, the organization was abolished, but its members were not arrested. Later, when the Germans came, they took arms again and carried them all the time. They took part in shooting of Jews and communists. They were called white partisans.Y.U.: The same Riflemen?Witness: Most of them.Y.U.: Did Riflemen wear uniforms?Witness: Not all of them. Those of higher rank wore special jackets, while the others looked like ordinary people. Lockup guards wore uniforms, but those were police uniforms without shoulder boards or any other signs. There were about three lockup guards. The prison was general, both for Lithuanian and Jewish offenders. Big markets were organized in Seirijai. The first day of the month was a market day. Traders brought cattle, butter, poultry and other production to sell. Jews used to come there, and they also wanted to get a lower price. They mostly bought chickens and calves. Jews would start bargaining with Lithuanians. Jews called us goys, and we called them obrezs. Lithuanian would strike a Jew in the face, but the latter would get up. Then Lithuanians would take swingle-bars and start beating Jews. A big scandal would erupt; police would come and take both Lithuanians and Jews to the lockup. Then they would be fined. Lithuanians would work off the fine, like nowadays they go to clean the streets, while Jews would pay the fine with cash.Y.U.: Where was the lockup?Witness: It burned down. It was located about 300 meters after the intersection. Somebody built a new house there. Seirijai was almost completely burned during the war. After Jewish houses burned, they gathered in their church, others went to live with farmers in the villages. The lockup also burned, although it was brick-built and the walls remained intact after the fire. Later people dismantled the walls, because they needed building materials.Y.U.: Was there any restaurant or hotel in Seirijai?Witness: There were plenty of them. The restaurant of the Jewish businessman Finkelis was very big. You could sleep there during the night and get drunk. If you got drunk, a Jew would help you, but only for money. Otherwise, if you came out of the restaurant drunk and staggering, policeman would lock you up. After a night in the lockup, you would have to pay a fine or to work it off. There were many restaurants and alcohol shops as well. Beer was not brewed in Seirijai, but lemonade was produced by the same Finkelis, the owner of the restaurant.Y.U.: Please, look at this picture. Is it the restaurant of Finkelis?Witness: Yes, exactly, it is Finkel’s restaurant. And this utility pole was also there.Y.U.: You can see the synagogue below. Was it the one for the youth or for the elderly?Witness: This one was for the elderly. The one for the youth had different roof. The restaurant was a good place for me and other children too. The customers would drink and eat until breaking down or being taken to the lockup, and then we would come to pick some snacks left.Y.U.: Do you recognize these shops?Witness: This shop belonged to Kuperšmicienė, I suppose.Y.U.: What kind of shop was it?Witness: They also offered snacks and even vodka. Men with saws and sawhorses used to gather near the shop of Kuperšmicienė and wait to be hired to cut firewood. A Jew would ask one of the men:–Will you come to cut firewood?–Yes, sir, I will.–For how much?–For one litas.–Ok, come with me.Another man would say litas and a half, and a Jew wouldn’t hire him, because that would be too expensive. So they were standing with the sawhorses and waiting for an opportunity to earn several cents.Y.U.: So they were waiting in that exact place, weren’t they?Witness: Yes, next to the house of Kuperšmicienė.Y.U.: What about this picture?Witness: This is the church of Seirijai. That is the house of Vazbuckė. It is Vytauto street.Y.U.: Did Vazbuckė only live there or he had a shop as well?Witness: No, there was no shop. It was a big house inhabited only by women, and it was called the house of Vazbuckiai. I don’t know where the man was. Nothing on this picture remained after the war, except the church, because everything else was burned. There were two bakeries in Seirijai where buns and bread were baked. It wasn’t like nowadays, when you go and buy a loaf of bread. Back then, you could take half a kilogram or a kilogram of bread. A Jew would cut and weigh it for you, take the money, and that would be it. They baked various buns as well.Y.U.: Did they sell on credit?Witness: They didn’t sell food on credit, but they did that with clothes. For instance, you came to the shop, but don’t have enough money to buy a cloth you like. A Jew would ask why you don’t buy it, and you would explain that you don’t have money. Then he would say:“Take it. I will write down the amount, and you will bring it later.” But he added a charge for that.Y.U.: So the item cost more, as a result?Witness: Yes. They didn’t sell food on credit, but did it in other way. For instance, I have 20 cents, but have to pay 25. In this case, a Jew would make a discount and sell the product for 20 cents.Y.U.: Did you speak Jewish language?Witness: Yes, I spoke it very well, because I was growing up among Jewish children. To be honest, I didn’t speak Lithuanian well enough. My mother often told me: “Why can’t you pronounce “duona” instead of “dona”, and “kuolas” instead of “kolas”?” I communicated with Jewish children very well. Those who heard me couldn’t distinguish whether I was Jewish or Lithuanian.Y.U.: Do you know any Jewish songs?Witness: Not really… <<< sings in Yiddish>>> “My dear cat, my pretty cat, wherever you would go, you would stay my cat.”Y.U.: Did anything change when the Russians came for the first time in 1940?Witness: When they came, all Jewish shops were nationalized. Lithuanian commissioners were appointed. They kept the keys of the Jewish shops. Commissioner would unlock the shop in the morning, and a Jew would come to work. At the end of the day, the commissioner would come to collect money from the Jewish shops. So the situation of the Jews worsened. They didn’t even try to refill their stock. But the Soviets stayed here only for a year, and then the Germans came.Y.U.: Did the same police as before the war continue working under the Soviets?Witness: No, the Russians changed the police, viršaitis and the whole government. When the Germans arrived, all the previous officials came back to their posts. All the commissioners who supervised the shops were Lithuanians, but those who supported communism. Before becoming commissioners they had to join the Komsomol. Only after joining it you could get a job. But when the Germans came, they gathered and shot all the Komsomol members.Y.U.: How did people react to the arrival of Russians?Witness: I can’t tell that, because I was still a child and didn’t care about people’s reaction. Russians nationalized shops and factories, like the one of Cvilingas. As a result, many jobs became vacant, and people were happy about that and about new government. My mother, for example, went to work as a cook in the former restaurant of Finkelis just two weeks after the arrival of Russians. We could eat there for free, and she was paid a salary.Y.U.: Who offered her to work there?Witness: She worked for Jews before, and for Finkelis as well. She used to bring him water and to do other tasks. Finkelis probably liked the way she worked and recommended to hire her.Y.U.: And what happened to the previous cook?Witness: Finkelis probably rented his restaurant to a man named Dziūkas, and his wife became a cook there. Dziūkas was a director. When the government changed, he probably became an enemy. He wasn’t local, so he left, but his wife stayed here. She married an uhlan officer later. I don’t know if I was lucky or not, but they wanted to adopt me, because they didn’t have their own children. But my mother refused, even though she was poor.Y.U.: Who wanted to adopt you – Dziūkas or uhlan officer?Witness: Dziūkas. Later, they had children with uhlan officer and lived happily.Y.U.: Did Russians deport any people of Seirijai to Siberia in 1940?Witness: Yes, they did. The pharmacist and Riflemen’s leader Vaicekauskas was deported, as well as Matonis and several other policemen. It was an act of revenge. Those policemen probably had punished somebody before, and the victims collected signatures against themafter the government changed. I don’t know how many people were deported from Seirijai, but some of them were.Y.U.: How were they deported? Were they arrested at night and deported all together?Witness: Some of them were arrested at night, others during the day. The guards were appointed who would come and surround the house so that nobody would be able to escape. But some people managed to flee. Arrests were carried out both at night and during the day.Y.U.: Were people brought away by carts or by train?Witness: They were taken to Šeštokai train station and put on a train there. There was another train station in Alytus, so the deportees were taken there too. People were transported to the train stations by military vehicles. That was carried out by soldiers, not by Lithuanians.Y.U.: Did you see any family being arrested and deported?Witness: No, because it happened quickly. We didn’t even know who was deported and how. Only later we learned that houses became empty, because their owners were deported.Y.U.: Were there any battles here in 1941 when the Russians were retreating pushed by the Germans?Witness: No, we didn’t see the war. I remember mother woke us up and told that airplanes were intensively flying around. We went outside. Do you know what a slingshot is?Y.U.: Yes.Witness: So we were shooting at those planes with slingshots. Around 12 o’clock my mother was at work in the canteen, when two Russian soldiers came and asked for meal. She gave them soup. But an airplane appeared at that moment and started shooting, so the soldiers escaped. The manager of the canteen was Burbulevičiukas. When the shooting started, my mother dropped everything and left wearing her white robe. She took us, and we all went to the field beyond the cemetery. Burbulevičius asked why she closed the canteen. His name was Alfonsas. She replied: „Alfonsas, the shooting started. It is a war. I have to take my children out of the town.“ Alfonsas was a strict person. He took out a pistol and said: „Why are you spreading rumors here? It‘s not a war, but just a drill! We will put you up against a wall, and your children will be left alone!“ My mother went back to the canteen and started cooking again. But Burbulevičius soon realized what was going on, and rushed back. My mother‘s name was Juzė. He told her: „Juzė, close the canteen and leave. The Germans are already in Lithuania.“ The German army appeared at about 12 o‘clock, or half past 12.Y.U.: Did they arrive by tanks or motorcycles?Witness: At first, the airplanes started flying around and shooting with machine-guns. Then they started throwing bombs from the airplanes to set the buildings on fire. And finally, the soldiers arrived, mostly by motorcycles, bicycles and on foot. The roads were jammed. When we decided to come back from Sagavas village located 3 kilometers away, we had to walk by the roadside and wait when we wanted to cross the road. There were plenty of soldiers; some of them were riding motorcycles. Officers were driven by motorcycles, I suppose. The others were walking on foot or riding bicycles.Y.U.: So you went to hide in the village and then came back to Seirijai, is that right?Witness: Yes, but the house of Kopūstas where we used to live was also burned. People whose houses were burned found shelter in the church. We also slept there. Then kind people Linkevičiai invited us to stay in their house. We stayed there for some time. By the order of Hitler, all the Germans who lived here were moved to Germany before the beginning of the war. Their houses stayed empty, so we were accommodated in them.Y.U.: The Jews whose houses were burned, where did they live?Witness: They were gathered in the school.Y.U.: The Jewish school?Witness: No, it also burned down. They were gathered in Lithuanian school.Y.U.: Did they also move to live with other families later?Witness: Some of them found shelter in the villages, but their situation was different. Six-pointed stars were sewn on their clothes, one at the front and one at the back. They were also prohibited from walking on the sidewalks; they had to walk on the edge of the roadway instead. Several Jewish houses survived the fire, so Jews lived there, several families in each one. In a word, the situation was distressing.Y.U.: Were those anti-Jewish measures introduced immediately after the arrival of the Germans?Witness: Yes, maybe a week later. Even at the market where farmers used to bring butter, cheese, bread and other products, Jews were not allowed to buy anything themselves. Goys bought products for them. But later German generals introduced a rule to shoot those who bought products for Jews or gave them food. It was written exactly like that.Y.U.: Was it written in an announcement?Witness: Yes, announcements were published everywhere.Y.U.: Were they written in Lithuanian?Witness: In three languages: Russian, Lithuanian and German.Y.U.: All three languages in one announcement?Witness: Yes. Sometimes there were several announcements: one in German, another in Lithuanian…Y.U.: Were the announcements printed on white or yellow paper?Witness: I can’t remember that. It was just paper. It wasn’t red, I know that for sure.Y.U.: Were the Jewish shops still open?Witness: No, they all burned. Several bakeries opened under the German rule. Ration cards were distributed. You couldn’t buy as much bread as you wanted, but just a limited amount for one family. People still needed to earn money to buy food, but Jews were already gone. You are all young, and God forbid you ever experience the same as we did.Y.U.: Who distributed ration cards?Witness: I don’t know, but probably it was local administration. There was viršaitis and other officials. They printed the cards somewhere. The head of a family had to go to pick them at the volost administration where his family members were registered. But those cards were terminable. People complained about the ration cards for vodka. Imagine if your husband was a drinker… Or if he was not, you could buy drinks and give them to another drinker. Tobacco was sold by ration cards too. That was our happy life. I wouldn’t wish it to anyone.Y.U.: Was a registration conducted or they already had all the lists?Witness: When the Germans came, seniūnai went to register everyone and presented the data to the volost administration.Y.U.: Did they go from house to house to count people?Witness: Yes. Most of the seniūnai were local, so they knew the families and the number of their members. They went to register them and then provided the information to the volost administration. When winter would come, children would stay barefoot, because there were no shoes available to buy. There were clogs… Do you know what clogs are?Y.U.: Yes, they are wooden shoes.Witness: So to get those wooden shoes you also needed a card from the volost administration. The cards were terminable. If you wore out your shoes earlier, you had to walk barefoot, and nobody cared about it.Y.U.: Terminable – does that mean that they were valid for a certain amount of time?Witness: Yes. Clogs were slippery, and children liked to slide on the ice with them. But after sliding they fell apart very soon. Parents often reproved us for that. Fathers used to attach wire hooks to the shoes, but they remained slippery anyway. That was very funny.Y.U.: Did they attach wire hooks to make them more slippery?Witness: No, to keep them intact.Y.U.: When the Germans arrived, did they create their own police or establish a commandant’s office?Witness: The police office and the lockup were located at the volost administration; and the commandant’s office as well. Everything was in one place. But they operated in accordance with the German laws. Various generals used to come to check their work. Everything was supervised by the Germans, so Lithuanians could not issue their own laws.Y.U.: Did white partisans have their own headquarters or they stayed in the same one?Witness: They were Riflemen, but were called like that to put it more softly. They were attached to the same volost administration. The lockup was empty sometimes, so they used to gather in it. They used to drink there and then play dirty tricks. They were mean people.Y.U.: When seniūnai conducted the registration, did they mark Jewish houses?Witness: Most of the Jewish houses had already burned. I don’t know how it happened with the Jews who found shelter elsewhere. Most of the seniūnai were local, so they knew some residents and registered them from memory. They went to register those they didn‘t know, and then provided the lists to the volost administration. Then the administration distributed the cards.Y.U.: How many places were the Jews gathered in, apart from the school?Witness: As I’ve told, the school was located on lower floor and the hall was on the upper one. So they were gathered there.Y.U.: In the hall?Witness: Yes. Apart from that, they also were gathered in their churches.Y.U.: Were they guarded when they stayed there?Witness: Yes, the white partisans and policemen were standing around those buildings. There were several German soldiers too.Y.U.: Were those places fenced?Witness: No. Jews wouldn’t escape through the windows, while the doors were nailed up. Five or six armed guards were walking around the synagogue, so nobody could escape. You can’t even imagine the conditions there. Jews were not allowed to leave for their natural needs. Men, women and children were held there together.Y.U.: Inside?Witness: Yes. When they left, the place looked awful. After the Jews were taken away, women, mostly Komsomol members, were brought to clean the place. Not everyone could do that; some of them fainted. Jews were gathered in their two churches, their school and the hall. The rest of them were also gathered in our school which was closed at that time.Y.U.: Were Lithuanians allowed to enter those places or to bring food for the Jews?Witness: No. But there were different people among the Riflemen and partisans, and some of them allowed throwing some food to the Jews. But even if you threw a piece of bread to them, it was too little for almost a thousand people.Y.U.: How were the Jews gathered in those places? Did they come there by themselves or they were forced to do that?Witness: Policemen and white partisans collected them. Some of them escaped. Zalmanas was searched for a long time. He worked in the press as a director or a journalist. He fled together with the Russians, but probably was sent back. His parents stayed here, so he returned to them. He was kind of an activist and spoke German well. He established a contact with one general and escaped to the West. He probably lived there under a false surname, but came back here when the war was over and the Soviet rule was re-established. He was the only survivor, as far as I know. His surname was Zalmanas.Y.U.: And all the others were just taken out of their houses and assembled together, weren’t they?Witness: Yes, they were taken out and brought to the assembly points. During the arrests, they were beaten until they fainted. They didn’t know they were about to be shot. They were told that the able-bodied would be selected and taken to work. There was a peat bog just half a kilometer away from the town. Do you know what it is?Y.U.: Yes.Witness: So Jewish men had to dig the peat with spades, while women had to tread it. Women remained women; they were wearing skirts at work. But there was a man named Skliutas, who used to beat Jewish women and force them to raise their skirts. That was inhuman.Y.U.: So the Jews were forced to work in the peat bog when they were gathered together, is that right?Witness: Yes. They were also guarded there and brought back after work. The workers received a certain amount of bread.Y.U.: Did you see the Jews being beaten on their way to the assembly point or to work?Witness: They were not beaten on their way to work. But I remember an episode involving one Jewish man; it happened when Jews were escorted to the shooting place in Baraučiškė. Jews were escorted down this road, and I together with other children rushed there to see what was going on. They all were undressed till underwear. Among them, there was doctor Finkelis, an old man. He stumbled at one moment, and the guard Scenavičius struck him in the back. Blood appeared on his underwear immediately. The Jewish man couldn’t get up, so stronger Jews came to help him. Later at the pit, those who tried to resist and refused to go inside the pit, were stunned and pushed inside. Germans didn’t know who of them could be revengeful, but Lithuanians first selected those who were younger and able to resist and brought them to Alytus to be shot. But the propaganda said that they were taken there to work. Poor Jews believed in that. They still believed in that when they were escorted to the shooting place. Only when they saw the pits, they started to panic.Y.U.: How long did the Jews work in the peat bog: for one week or more?Witness: They worked there until they were shot.Y.U.: How long were they kept locked?Witness: For about a week.Y.U.: Did you see them working in the peat bog?Witness: No, because it was located about a kilometer away, so we didn’t go there.Y.U.: How do you know how they worked there and what Skliutas did?Witness: Older boys used to go there and told us what happened there. “Look, the Jewesses are being brought to the peat bog”, – they would say. But I was too young, so I didn’t go there to watch.Y.U.: Have you heard about any cases of rape against Jewish women?Witness: No, nothing like that happened. Maybe watching at some parts of woman’s body was enough to satisfy their appetite. We haven’t heard about any cases of rape.Y.U.: Were the younger Jews brought to Alytus by carts of by trucks?Witness: They were immediately brought away on foot. Maybe they were picked by trucks on the way, but I think they walked all the distance to Alytus. Speaking about sexual abuse, guards had no chance to do that, because Jews were taken to the assembly points by whole families. There they stayed in so poor sanitary conditions that nobody would desire them.Y.U.: Where were you when young Jews were brought to Alytus? Were you running around?Witness: Yes, we were running around the whole town. Children didn’t go to school and had nothing to do, so they were running around the streets. If we saw any bustle, we rushed to see it. Neither Jews, nor me could even imagine that they would be shot. When stars were attached to their clothes, I thought that they would be kept here or taken elsewhere, but had noidea about the shooting. When the young Jews were taken to Alytus, they were called by names out of the school and the church. Then they were lined up and marched away guarded by policemen and white armbanders. According to people, they were transported to Alytus to work. But in fact, they were marched away on foot. There was a shooting place near Alytus, so they were probably brought directly there and shot to prevent any resistance by the young men.Y.U.: How did you come to see the Jews being brought to Baraučiškė? Were you running around that place too?Witness: We saw people being escorted by the guards, and wondered where they were going. Later we learned that young Jews were gathered and marched to Alytus to prevent any turmoil here. We didn’t expect that they would be shot.Y.U.: And later, the rest of them were marched to Baraučiškė, weren’t they?Witness: Yes, all of them were marched there together, both young and old Jews. But the young men had already been brought away. At first, the rest of the men were brought to Baraučiškė. Then women and children were brought there, and the elderly were brought the last. Some of them were brought by carts, because they couldn’t walk.Y.U.: So they were brought not all together, but in three groups, is that right?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Were they selected from the church and the school?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Did you see all three groups being brought to Baraučiškė?Witness: Yes. That was a very unusual action. There was a large corridor in the house of Vazbuckė. We hid in that corridor while the column passed, and then followed it till the shooting place.Y.U.: Did you follow all three groups?Witness: No, after the first group was brought to the place, we stayed there to see what would happen next.Y.U.: So you followed the first group of men and stayed there, is that right?Witness: Yes. We were hiding among the trees and bushes, because nobody would have allowed us to stay there. When we came back home in the evening, we were scolded by our parents for going there. I had fair hair, but my brother was dark-haired, so parents told that he could have been shot together with the Jews.Y.U.: When you saw the first group of men, were they just leaving the synagogue or walking the road already?Witness: We were near the house of Vazbuckė, when we saw the Jews coming. The guards were escorting them and chasing people away from the street. The house of Vazbuckė was big. We entered it and waited until the column passed. Then we followed it.Y.U.: Didn’t the guards watch if anybody was following?Witness: We didn’t approach them close enough, but followed them till the shooting place.Y.U.: The house of Vazbuckė, was it located on Vytauto street?Witness: It was the first house next to the church. It was Vytauto street.Y.U.: Was it the house we showed you on the picture?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Is it this house?Witness: Yes. Here was the entrance, and you could reach the backyard through a long corridor. I stayed in that corridor together with other children. There were also several adults with us who were walking the street and were chased away.Y.U.: Were you looking through the windows?Witness: Jews were forced away from the house, and all the doors were locked or nailed up, except the front and back ones.Y.U.: Was the column lined up in order?Witness: Yes, they were aligned four people in a row.Y.U.: Were they already undressed till underwear?Witness: Yes. It was raining and quite cold, because it was September. They were almost completely naked, I would say. Women were wearing just small pieces of underwear, even without bras and underpants. I think the shooters shared their belongings later.Y.U.: The guards who escorted the groups, did they also go on foot?Witness: Yes. They were walking at the front, on both sides and at the rear of the group. There were many guards, because the number of people was big, and they had to prevent them from escaping.Y.U.: Did the guards have dogs?Witness: No, we didn’t see any dogs. Maybe they kept them elsewhere, but they were walking without dogs.Y.U.: Were there any Germans?Witness: There were several German soldiers at the shooting place, but not among the guards who escorted the column.Y.U.: After the column followed the street past the house of Vazbuckė, did it turn to another street?Witness: They went straight, then turned to the road leading to Leipalingis and reached the forest.Y.U.: Did they turn left or right from the road to the forest?Witness: They turned left. Then they took the road between two lakes, Sagavas and Prieglius, to reach the shooting place.Y.U.: What was the approximate number of Jewish men in the first group?Witness: I can’t tell you that. It was big.Y.U.: Several dozen or several hundred people?Witness: There might have been more than a thousand of them.Y.U.: So it was huge…Witness: Yes, because Seirijai was inhabited almost only by Jews. There were lots of them; maybe not a thousand people in one group, but two or three hundred, for sure.Y.U.: Did you follow the group only with your brother or with any other children?Witness: We were about six children gathered in a small gang. We couldn’t even imagine what we would see there. We would fall behind a little, and then come closer again. We were children, silly and curious at the same time. And we knew most of the Jews, above all.Y.U.: When you reached the execution place together with the first group, were the Germans already there?Witness: Yes. There were five or six soldiers and one officer who gave the commands.Y.U.: Did they wait standing or they had a place to sit?Witness: I don’t know, maybe they were lying before the Jews were brought. But once the group arrived, they stood up and started walking around the pits. When the Jews saw the pits, they started crying and screaming. In the beginning, they were obedient like sheep.Y.U.: Did you see any car or truck the Germans arrived by?Witness: No. Only those who couldn’t walk were brought to the shooting place by carts. There were no any vehicles around, except a motorcycle with sidecar. The officer arrived by it, I guess. The motorcycle was parked at some distance, and a guard was standing next to it.Y.U.: Were you hiding far from the pit?Witness: From six to ten meters from it, I would say. We saw and heard everything clearly.Y.U.: Were you hiding in the bushes?Witness: Yes. The shooters were dizzy, because they were given alcohol. They were not completely drunk and could still walk, but their mind was poisoned.Y.U.: When you arrived at the pit, had the shooting already started?Witness: No. They took Vytauto street and then turned to the next one, but we rushed across the fields.Y.U.: Did you already know where to go?Witness: Yes, people started talking that Jews were being brought to Baraučiškė to be shot. Some of the local people dug the pits, so they knew what was going on. We heard that and rushed to the place through the fields in order to be there first.Y.U.: Were the guards drinking on the way or near the pits?Witness: No, they were given alcohol before. It was brought in milk churns. They were not made completely drunk and unable to do the job, but were tipsy enough. There were two Jewish doctors in Seirijai: Finkelis and Garbarskas. Finkelis was an old man, while Garbarskas was young. He treated women mostly. Some people say that Jews were bad people, but I will tell you a story of another kind. A man once came from Miroslavas which was located 12 kilometers away. He came at night by cart and knocked at the doctor’s window. The doctor asked what was going on, and the man told that his wife was struggling to deliver a baby for two days without success. The doctor agreed to come. He asked the man how he arrived. Having looked at his cart, the doctor said: “Your wife will die before we get there by your cart.” The doctor went to his servant who lived in a separate house and told him to prepare his own horses. The man wanted to go first, but doctor told him to leave his horse and go with him. The doctor also told the servant to feed the man’s horse. They went to the man’s wife, and she gave birth successfully. The man and the doctor came back to the doctor’s manor. The latter worked for money, of course, but he gave back the horse and the cart. The happy man came back home to his wife and baby. The doctor was a gynecologist. When the front line passed across the region, a hospital for the wounded was established in a school building. All the Jews had already been shot, but he was spared and sent to work in that hospital. But when the Germans were being pushed back, they shot him near the school.Y.U.: Let’s get back to the shooting place. Was the whole column of Jews brought straight to the pit or it was divided into smaller groups?Witness: They would be brought there, aligned and told to descend into the pit and lie down. That’s it.Y.U.: In smaller groups?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: How many people were there in one small group?Witness: I didn’t count them.Y.U.: But they were told to go down into the pit and then shot, is that right?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: What did you see from the bushes: the shooters or the Jews?Witness: We saw the Jews and the guards who escorted them. We couldn’t see them lying in the pit.Y.U.: But could you see them going down into the pit?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Did they jump into the pit? Was it deep?Witness: Some of them jumped into it, others were pushed inside. They were insane.Y.U.: Was the procedure the same for men and women? First men jumped into the pit, and then women had to do the same, hadn’t they?Witness: Yes. Some of them jumped into the pit themselves, and the others were hit with a butt and pushed inside. Women were brought together with children. They had to lie down on their children, and were killed with single shots. Mother would be probably killed, but the child could have been just wounded or stayed unharmed. When the second group was brought, it was shot with submachine guns. I knew one Jewish child who was raised byLithuanian grandmother. She was very religious and always took the boy with her to the church. After the women were shot, the boy crawled out of the pit, sat down on the edge of it and said: “Please, don’t shoot me. I know all Lithuanian prayers. I will be Lithuanian.” Viršaitis Maskeliūnas approached him, kicked him into the pit, took out a pistol and shot him. Maybe we also were evil-minded at that time, but when I think about it now, it seems terrible. I remember those screams. We were not allowed to approach that place after the shooting, but people who covered the pits told that the earth above the bodies was moving. There were people still alive.Y.U.: When a big group of victims would be brought to the shooting place and one smaller group would be taken into the pit, would the others have to wait sitting or standing?Witness: When they were brought, they were lined up four people in a row. The group would approach the pit and told to go to the opposite edge of it. They would be stopped at the opposite edge, and then commanded: “First row – into the pit!” The row would descend, and the shooters would command again: “Second row – into the pit!” They would descend row by row and lie down. Those who would resist would be struck and pushed inside.Y.U.: So four victims had to approach the edge of the pit, jump inside and lie down?Witness: Yes. But groups had four rows, so the first row would jump inside, and the next one would be told to come closer to the edge.Y.U.: Would the first row be shot meanwhile?Witness: No, only after four rows would be laid down, they would be shot. Imagine, with a submachine gun they would probably have shot everyone, but with single shots they might have missed some of the victims. The number of the Jews and the shooters wasn’t the same. There were about ten victims for one shooter.Y.U.: Did they shoot with small pistols at first?Witness: With rifles. After they fired a shot, they had to recharge the bolt before firing the next one. As a comparison, a submachine gun can be loaded with 37 cartridges; if you press and hold the trigger, you can fire them all at once.Y.U.: Were only women shot with submachine guns?Witness: When the second group of them was brought, they took the submachine guns. They saw that rifles were not effective, so submachine guns were brought and given to the shooters.Y.U.: Did they have to wait until the submachine guns were brought?Witness: No. After the first big group was shot, the second one had to be brought from Seirijai. The distance was four kilometers. During that time, they could bring the submachine guns and whatever else they needed.Y.U.: So the whole group of men was shot with rifles, wasn’t it?Witness: Yes. Some of them were shot dead, others were only wounded. The shot row would be covered with earth, and then the other victims would have to lie down on top of them. The Germans were guarding the place with machine guns. They stayed at some distance and could barely be seen. In case of escape attempt Jews would have been shot with machine guns.Y.U.: Were there no Germans near the pit?Witness: No. They didn’t shoot the victims in the pit. They stayed at a distance with four machine guns.Y.U.: Were all several hundred men shot with rifles?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Those who had to fill in the pits, did they stay nearby and wait?Witness: They stayed at a distance and didn’t see this tragedy. After one group of victims would be shot, viršaitis and police chief would call the diggers to come with spades. The earth was piled on one side of the pit. The diggers would cover the bodies with a layer of earth, and then the next row would be brought to be shot.Y.U.: Was every small group covered with earth?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: So the victims didn’t see the dead bodies in the pit, did they?Witness: No. Two or three pits were dug out. They were 50 meters long and 2 meters wide.Y.U.: Were men, women and the elderly shot in different pits?Witness: No. One row would be shot and covered with some earth, and then the next row would be brought to the same pit.Y.U.: Were they all shot in one pit?Witness: No. There were two pits. Their depth was about 2 meters, so one pit would not have been enough to bury all the bodies.Y.U.: Did Jewish men have to lie down inside the pit?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Were they told to face the ground?Witness: No, they were told nothing and could lie down in whatever position they wanted.Y.U.: Were the executioners shooting from the edge of the pit?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Were there any other civilians at the pit, apart from viršaitis?Witness: The so-called white partisans were there, as well as viršaitis, the chief of police and other policemen.Y.U.: Were the diggers standing further away?Witness: Yes, they were standing at a distance.Y.U.: Were any local teachers brought to the shooting place?Witness: Maybe there were some teachers among the Jews. The diggers were unemployed people from the town, although most of its residents were unemployed. Farmers from the villages were also brought to fill in the pits.Y.U.: Do you know what villages were the diggers brought from?Witness: From the surrounding ones: Lapšius, Baraučiškė, Bukaučizna.Y.U.: Was the priest present at the shooting site?Witness: No. The rabbis were there; they were shot together with the other Jews. During the shooting of the communists and Komsomol members, prelate Laukaitis would come and offer them to confess. If they refused to do it here, he went to the execution place as well. The communists and Komsomol members were shot in the swamp behind the Jewish cemetery.Y.U.: Did you see that shooting?Witness: Yes, we rushed to the Jewish cemetery to watch it. They would be brought in groups of ten or twelve people. Before the execution, they were kept locked in the basement of the house of Vazbuckė.Y.U.: Were they shot before the Jews?Witness: Yes. Their arrests began just two or three days after the arrival of the Germans.Y.U.: Was each small group of victims covered with earth after it was shot in the pit?Witness: Do you mean Jews?Y.U.: Yes.Witness: Jews were brought not in small groups, but in ones of about hundred people.Y.U.: So a hundred of people would be brought…Witness: They would be brought straight to the pit, lined up in four rows. The first row would stand closest to the pit, others would stand behind. The first group would be laid down inside the pit and shot. Then the next row would approach the pit, descend into it and be shot. Then the third row would do the same, and the fourth one. When the whole hundred people would be shot, the diggers would be called to cover the bodies with earth.Y.U.: So the next row could see the previous one shot dead in the pit?Witness: Yes, they were laid down one upon another.Y.U.: Could you draw us a scheme? This would be a pit; those would be the bushes you were hiding in.Witness: The bushes were everywhere around.Y.U.: From which side would they arrive?Witness: They would arrive from this side and stop here. They would be lined up in four rows. The first one would be told to descend into the pit and lie down. The next row would be told to approach the pit.Y.U.: Where would the shooters stand – everywhere around?Witness: Yes, around the pit.Y.U.: Where was the earth piled?Witness: The Jews were standing here, and the earth was piled on the opposite side of the pit.Y.U.: Was there a German giving the commands?Witness: No, the Germans were standing in the corners with machine guns. They were about six. They didn’t shoot, but only guarded the place to prevent escape attempts. There was also one senior German officer who was filming.Y.U.: Where were you?Witness: Here was a valley with bushes, and we stayed there at first. Then we moved towards the lake right here. We couldn’t stay at the same place. (Tells to the third person: Onutė is somewhere outside, go and look there)Y.U.: Did the German officer use a camera with a tripod?Witness: No, he had a handheld camera hanging on a strap. We didn’t even realize what he was doing, because we weren’t used to many things. (Tells to the third person: Go outside and you will find Onutė. We are busy here.)Y.U.: Was it a video or photo camera?Witness: Don’t ask me. I had no idea.Y.U.: Was it thin with a round container for the tape?Witness: Yes. It wasn’t mounted on a tripod, but was hanging on his neck. The officer wasn’t standing in one place, but was walking around. (Speaks about the third person: He had a surgery on his throat, and is not able to speak now. Please, tell that to this man, because he asks who that was.)Y.U.: He doesn’t ask anything. Was the officer with camera walking around during the whole execution?Witness: Yes. He filmed the shooting, the diggers working, the next group being brought. He was filming all the time.Y.U.: Till the end?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: You can see a man with a camera on this picture. Was it a similar camera?Witness: I hardly can see the face. He was a German.Y.U.: This is a random picture taken from Internet.Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Was he walking around?Witness: Yes, he went to the rear side of the pit, then came closer, then went around it. He didn’t stay in one place.Y.U.: After all the men were shot, their bodies were covered with earth and then the women were brought, is that right?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Did it take some time to bring the women?Witness: The shooters had to walk almost three and a half kilometers back from Baraučiškė. The victims were also brought on foot, not by vehicles.Y.U.: Did the shooters have to go back and bring the victims themselves?Witness: Yes, they came back, organized the next group and brought it to the shooting place on foot. It took some time.Y.U.: Did they also bring submachine guns?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Did you stay at the same place in the meanwhile?Witness: We stayed there until the evening. As I’ve told, we were scolded by our parents, because they didn’t even know where we were.Y.U.: Did the Germans stay at the place during the break?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Did viršaitis stay as well?Witness: Yes. Maskeliūnas was viršaitis; Jaskelevičius was a Wachtmeister. Maskeliūnas stayed at the shooting place until the end, while Jaskelevičius went home after two groups were shot.Y.U.: Who was he – the Wachtmeister?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: What does it mean?Witness: The chief of police.Y.U.: Did they eat or drink during the break?Witness: We didn’t see that. They went away from the pit. Of course, they couldn’t have stayed without eating and drinking for the whole day. The diggers were also given vodka. They were not volunteers; they were requisitioned. But anyway, they were given some encouragement.Y.U.: Was the whole procedure the same for the women? Were they also lined up in four rows, and the first row had to descend into the pit?Witness: Yes. And they kept children in front of them. Let’s say, I am standing, and a child is standing in front of me. You are standing next, and a child in front of you. Larger families with more children were placed in different rows.Y.U.: Did they cry or stay silent?Witness: Yes, both women and children cried. It looked like the end of the world.Y.U.: Were they shot with submachine guns?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Did they also have to lie down?Witness: Yes. I didn’t think about that before, but now I wonder why this big group of people didn’t try to escape. They would have been shot anyway, but there was still a chance to survive by escaping. They were shocked or given some kind of drugs, I suppose. They were walking silent with their heads down. Only when they saw the pits, they started crying and embracing each other to say good-bye.Y.U.: Were all the women and children brought on foot or some of them were transported by carts?Witness: Women carried their small children, the older ones were walking beside.Y.U.: Were only the elderly brought by carts?Witness: Yes, those who were completely disabled. God forbid anyone should see it. Back then, something was different, and we could watch that. Later, when I grew up, I went to see that place again several times. I was thinking about it and felt like my heart was going to jump out of my chest.Y.U.: Were all the groups shot by the same shooters?Witness: Yes. Some shooters were brought even from Belarus, not only from Lithuania. Some of them were brought from Alytus; we belonged to Alytus County at that time. There were only several shooters from Seirijai, while the number of Jews was huge.Y.U.: Who were brought from Belarus: the shooters or the Jews?Witness: The shooters.Y.U.: Were the Jews escorted and shot by the same people?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: The shooters brought from Belarus, were they Belarusians or Lithuanians living there?Witness: They were Belarusians.Y.U.: Did they wear uniforms?Witness: No, they didn’t. They were auxiliaries.(Irrelevant conversation between the witness and his wife)Y.U.: Was the whole last group brought by carts or somebody was walking beside?Witness: The guards were walking beside.Y.U.: Were all the Jews sitting in carts?Witness: Yes. Some of them were sitting, others were lying down.Y.U.: Did the carts stop far from the pit?Witness: Quite far. They were taken off the carts. Not soldiers, but ordinary farmers were requisitioned to drive the carts.Y.U.: Did the victims have to walk to the pit themselves?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: How far from the pit did the carts stop?Witness: Not very far. I can’t tell the exact distance, but it was like the one from here to the house on the other side of the street.Y.U.: Did the victims have to go to the pit themselves or they were pushed?Witness: They were told to get off the carts. The stronger ones helped the weaker ones. They were forced to go to the pit. Those who fell down were helped by others. They were old and ill people.Y.U.: Were the old people also undressed?Witness: Yes. They all wore only underwear, both men and women.Y.U.: Were the elderly also shot with submachine guns?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Which of three groups was the biggest?Witness: The first one.Y.U.: Did the diggers start filling in the pits immediately after the shooting was over?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Did you notice any person counting the victims?Witness: No.Y.U.: Did the shooting last the whole day?Witness: When it was over, it had already started getting dark. Days were shorter in autumn. In Katkiškė, close to Lazdijai, Jews were exhumed and reburied in another place. A rosary was found during the exhumation. Do you know what a rosary is?Y.U.: Yes.Witness: So they assumed that there was a Lithuanian among the victims. A digger who filled in the grave turned up and told how it happened. When the Jews descended into the pit and the shooting started, one of them rose, grabbed a shooter and pulled him inside. He was shot in the pit together with Jews.Y.U.: Did the execution start in the morning?Witness: At about 11 o’clock. We didn’t have watches, so we couldn’t check the time.Y.U.: Did the Germans and viršaitis wait until the graves were filled in?Witness: No, they didn’t. The German and viršaitis left after the last group was shot and slightly covered with earth.Y.U.: Were the diggers left alone?Witness: No, the shooters stayed there too.Y.U.: Were the bodies covered only with earth or also with some other substance or chemicals?Witness: We were not close enough to see that. I heard that the bodies were covered with lime, but I couldn’t see that.Y.U.: The man who was filming everything, did he take the camera with him?Witness: We saw only the German filming, and nobody else.Y.U.: Did he hand over the tape to anybody?Witness: I don’t know; I didn’t see that.Y.U.: Did he leave with the other Germans?Witness: Yes. He was an officer, I suppose.Y.U.: Other witnesses told us that Germans used to put the tape into a bottle or a box and throw it into the pit.Witness: I didn’t see that. I only know that he was an officer, because he had bigger shoulder boards and was giving the commands to his soldiers.Y.U.: To the German soldiers?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: What was the color of his uniform?Witness: It was green. And he had a skull.Y.U.: On his hat?Witness: On his hat and sleeve.Y.U.: Did the other Germans also have skulls on their hats and sleeves?Witness: Yes. It was a special unit.Y.U.: Did you happen to see those Germans in Seirijai before?Witness: Maybe I did, but the soldiers looked the same for us. The devil only knows, were they the same or not. Maybe they took part in other shootings as well, not only in Seirijai.Y.U.: The German soldiers you saw before, did they also have skulls?Witness: Most of those I saw in Seirijai had them. It was a special unit.Y.U.: Did they have their headquarters here?Witness: I don’t know; maybe they did. Or maybe they worked together with police. But food was delivered for them.Y.U.: From where?Witness: How could I know?Y.U.: Was it delivered by vehicles?Witness: Yes, the vehicle would bring it; they would eat and come back with all the dishes. Maybe they had a kitchen here. But there were not many Germans in Seirijai.Y.U.: The main German officer at the execution site, did he wear glasses?Witness: Yes, he did. If you mean the one who was filming.Y.U.: Yes. Was any celebration organized in Seirijai or at the execution place after the shooting?Witness: Probably yes, but we not invited to it.Y.U.: You had already gone home, hadn’t you?Witness: Yes, so I don’t know what happened next. But I know that white armbanders came back singing.Y.U.: What did they sing?Witness: I don’t know. I suppose, they sang patriotic songs, because they were considered to be patriots.Y.U.: Were the white armbanders the same people who were the Riflemen before?Witness: They came from everywhere, from various villages. After the execution, many people came from the villages to take Jewish belongings. They loaded the belongings on carts and transported them.Y.U.: Were Jewish belongings brought to one place?Witness: No, when the Jews were forced out of their houses, they left their belongings there. At first, the partisans and white armbanders were placed to guard the houses. After the shooting, Jewish belongings were collected from the houses and brought to a warehouse near the headquarters. Eventually, everything was shared out: furniture, clothes, etc. At the beginning, when the Jews were brought to the school, they were searched and forced to hand over gold, rings and watches. According to the book I read recently, viršaičiai and Wachtmeisters issued an order to bring all Jewish valuables to the volost administration. But they couldn’t check everyone.Y.U.: Was there an auction organized to sell the Jewish belongings?Witness: No, those who took part in the shooting shared the belongings among themselves. Women who were brought to clean the houses were also given some items – coats or skirts, for example. But there was no auction.Y.U.: Are the Jewish bodies still in the graves?Witness: Now that place is taken care of, but a year after the shooting or even earlier people started digging the graves searching for gold teeth or other valuables Jews might have hidden. The Jews who survived or lived abroad heard about that and hired people to take care of the graves. But before, when the graves were dug, dogs used to come there to pick the bones of the victims. Now the graves are fenced, and there is a monument. I don’t know if the inscription is in Jewish language only or in Lithuanian as well.Y.U.: Could you tell us more details about the shooting of the communists?Witness: It was very short, because the number of victims was small. The communists and Komsomol members were arrested. Supporters of the Soviet Union were persecuted. They were arrested and locked in the basement of the house of Vazbuckė. They were held there for some time without any trial. Nykštaitis was the organizer of the shooting.Y.U.: Who was he?Witness: He was very loyal to the Germans. A group of ten or twelve detainees was brought to the swamp behind the Jewish cemetery. The victims were lined up, and viršaitis Maskeliūnas gave a command to load the weapons. Then a command to open fire followed. All the victims fell down, except one. He had to be shot by a Lithuanian man named Juodviršis.Y.U.: Was there one shooter for each victim?Witness: Yes. Viršaitis approached him, took his rifle and told: “If you are a woman, don’t use the weapon.” Viršaitis shot the victim himself. Later I didn’t see Juodviršis again. He came from Kapčiamiestis or some place around it. He disappeared. But he couldn’t shoot.Y.U.: Was a pit already dug there?Witness: No. The victims were brought to the place and lined up in a row. The shooters were lined up in the same way. After the victims were shot, relatives could take the bodies and bury them. They were shot and just left there. But nobody came for two victims: for a Jewish woman Šalamė and for Giedraitis from Šventežeris. They were buried in the swamp. People were brought to do that.Y.U.: So nobody came for them?Witness: No. Nobody could take the body of the Jewish woman, because Jews had already been shot. The relatives from Šventežeris probably didn’t know where their family member was.Y.U.: But Jews hadn’t been shot yet, they were only gathered together, is that right?Witness: Yes, that’s true. A Jewish man Kovalskis was a very big goldsmith; his body was also lying there for a long time. Jews didn’t come for him, so he was also buried there by other people.Y.U.: Did you see the shooting of the communists only once?Witness: Yes. We didn’t go there again.Y.U.: Were there more groups shot?Witness: Yes. Do you know where those Komsomol and party members came from? When Jewish shops were nationalized, commissioners were appointed. But to get a job, you had to join the Komsomol. Older people had to join the party to get a job. But when the Germans came, they all were executed for that.Y.U.: Is there a monument at the place of their execution?Witness: No, there is nothing. There is a plain field left after the land amelioration.Y.U.: Does the Jewish cemetery still exist?Witness: Yes. The local administration takes care of it and sends people to do some work there. They don’t restore it, but just cut the grass and clean the ground. Grazing is prohibited there. Graves and gravestones are still visible, so the cemetery is still there. It is surrounded by a stone fence.Y.U.: Were the communists the first victims of the Germans in Seirijai?Witness: Yes, once the Germans arrived, they started gathering Komsomol members immediately. Lithuanians betrayed each other and reported Komsomol members who had no membership documents. Me and you, we are Lithuanians, but I must admit that our nation wasn’t nice. I experienced that during my service in the army. If you wanted to leave, a Russian orderly would always let you go and just warn you to stay out of sight of the officers. Lithuanians, on the contrary, would never allow you to do that. Lithuanians took the bodies of their relatives shot in the swamp, but there were several Jews among them too: Kovalskis and Nisinas, for example. A little later, Jews took their bodies to their cemetery and buried them.Y.U.: What happened to the white partisans and other shooters? Were they sentenced under the Russian rule or they escaped?Witness: Those who stayed were sentenced for 25 years, but most of them retreated together with the Germans.Y.U.: For 25 years in Siberia?Witness: Yes. Under Stalin’s rule, there was no any other punishment than that. You didn’t even need to be a shooter; it was enough to say that Stalin was stupid. If somebody would hear that, you would be put on trial and sentenced for 25 years. Other shooters fled to the woods, became partisans and started fighting for Lithuania. But they also raped women, killed children, etc. When one person was asked about his opinion of the partisans, he said: “25 percent of them were partisans, but the rest were looters, kidnappers and rapists.” That was true. Two aunts of my wife were shot together with their families; 14 coffins were brought away from the village in one night. Can you imagine that? And they were considered to be Lithuanian partisans.Y.U.: Did any shooters of the Jews also join the partisans?Witness: Yes. They didn’t fight for Lithuania, but just tried to save their skin and to live an easy life. They had weapons and could do whatever they wanted. But most of them retreated together with the Germans. Germany and America accepted all the trash. Our president fled and found shelter there, and all those villains did that too.Y.U.: I will ask one of the last questions. The German officer who was filming, did he ask anybody to pose?Witness: I don’t know. We were children, so we couldn’t understand that. But there was no need to pose, because everything happened naturally.Y.U.: Thank you for your testimony, it was very interesting to hear so many details.Witness: I didn’t expect the interview to be so long.Y.U.: We are sorry if we made you tired.Witness: Two men came yesterday, we spoke a little, and they took some notes.Y.U.: We wanted to hear the whole story and to preserve it as a historical recollection.Witness: They said that French people would come, if I agree to speak with them.Y.U.: We want to ask for your permission to keep this record in the archive in France, to share it with teachers, students and other people interested in history.Witness: You can do it. I don’t care whether you show it abroad or here, because I told you the facts.Y.U.: Thank you.AT THE SHOOTING PLACEY.U.: Could you show us the place and tell who were shot there?Witness: The place is right there, in the meadow behind the crop field.Y.U.: Was it a swamp before?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: From which side were the communists brought?Witness: From this one.Y.U.: By this road?Witness: Yes, by Kapų street. They were brought aligned in a group. We were children...Y.U.: Where were you?Witness: We rushed to the Jewish cemetery right there, hid ourselves and watched what was going on.Y.U.: So you watched that from a distance, didn’t you?Witness: Yes. There was no corn field, so we saw everything clearly.Y.U.: Did the victims stand at the same place where the horses stand now?Witness: No, a little closer. There was a swamp where the horses stand. The execution place was 50 meters away from here, right after the crop field. They all were shot and fell down, except for one.Y.U.: Did the executioners shoot in that direction?Witness: Yes. There was kind of a hill in the swamp.Y.U.: Was it the same place where my colleague is walking now?Witness: No, it was near those birch trees.Y.U.: Was the number of the communists and the shooters the same?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Should he go further towards the birch trees?Witness: Yes.Y.U.: Did the shooters use simple pistols?Witness: No, they used rifles.Y.U.: Did they fire single shots?Witness: Yes, each shooter had to shoot his own victim. But the victim of Juodviršis didn’t fall down. Now your colleague is at the right place. He shouldn’t go further. Juodviršis didn’t fire a shot, so viršaitis Maskeliūnas approached him and said: “Are you a woman? If you are, don’t take a weapon.” Then he took out a pistol and shot the victim. The Jewish goldsmith Kovalskis was also shot here; he produced jewelry and had his own shop. Lithuanians took the bodies of their relatives after the shooting.Y.U.: Do you remember what people were shot here?Witness: Of course, I know: Zenka, Rinka, Blaževičius, Šaliūnas. I remember most of them. After the shooting, viršaitis Maskeliūnas checked the bodies to make sure they were dead. The shooters took not this road, but that one to come back.Y.U.: Why?Witness: Probably they didn’t want to meet people on the street. We must keep in mind that they were drunk. Viršaitis went first, and they walked singing behind him.Y.U.: So you saw the shooting of only one group of ten or twelve people, is that right?Witness: Yes, approximately.Y.U.: Was the number of shooters also ten or twelve?Witness: Yes. It was forbidden to come here on the day of the shooting. Only next day people could collect the bodies and bury them in the cemetery.Y.U.: Were there more groups brought to be shot here?Witness: Yes. Not only the communists and Komsomol members were arrested, but also the supporters of the Soviet Union. People betrayed those who harmed them under the communist regime; the latter were arrested and brought here to be shot.Y.U.: How many people were shot here in the swamp?Witness: After our house burned down, we moved to Kapų street. They were usually escorted past our house. Sometimes it was one group per week. The groups consisted of five or ten people, but not more that twelve. I remember an old man who was disabled and walked with two sticks. He bought poultry, ducks and geese from people and kept them in the homestead of Milūnas. He wanted to work as a watchman, but had to join the party to get that job. So he joined the party. When the communists were taken to be shot, that old man with two sticks was taken too. The women who lived on Kapų street said: “Men, what are you doing? He will die if you take his sticks away, so there is no need even to shoot him.” But anyway, he was brought here and shot, because he was a communist.Y.U.: So most of the victims shot here were Lithuanians, and only a few Jews among them, is that right?Witness: Yes, there were not many Jews: Nisinas, Kovalskis, Šalamė… Up to ten people in total. But they were shot as communists.Y.U.: You told that the priest was here…Witness: Yes, the priest Laukaitis was here. After the victims would be taken from the house of Vazbuckė, he would propose them to confess.Y.U.: Would he stop them on the way or come here?Witness: He would propose them to confess near the churchyard just after they would be taken out of the basement. Most of them would refuse, so he would come here together with the shooters in case somebody would change his mind. Maybe some of them did. The priest was wearing a cassock, as it had to be. There was a woman named Burbulevičienė; her son was a communist. She used to work for the priests. When her son was arrested, she asked the priest: „Father, you are so influential, please, ask them to let Alfonsas free.“ But the priest replied: „A lamb will get what he deserves.“ He was mean. Once the Soviet government was established, he was deported to Siberia and died there.Y.U.: Could you tell us again the story about the Jewish woman whose husband was a member of the army of Plechavičius?Witness: I’ve already told it.Y.U.: But we want to record it.Witness: So translate to their language.Y.U.: We will record it now, and I will translate later.Witness: They got married when all the Jews had already been shot. They lived together for a week or two. When the army of Plechavičius was established, he was recruited to it. His surname was Gaidžiūnas. His wife and mother stayed to live here in Seirijai, in his homeland.Y.U.: But they didn’t live in Seirijai, did they?Witness: They lived at the end of Vytauto street. The Jewish wife of Gaidžiūnas stayed to live with his mother. But some people remembered that she was Jewish and decided to kill her. She was taken to Apušėliai hill in the forest, forced to dig a pit and undress. She took off her underpants and threw them in the face of Zubrickas. Then she lay down and was shot.Y.U.: Did they cover her body with earth?Witness: Only slightly. Jankulis was brought to fill in her grave later. Maybe he was given some money for that.Y.U.: What was the number of executioners?Witness: They were three. Everyone laughed at that: three men armed with rifles went to kill a helpless woman. Firstly, they did that for amusement. Secondly, they wanted to get some profit. And thirdly, that was simply inhuman to kill a woman who decided to marry a Lithuanian and change her faith.Y.U.: When did she marry him?Witness: The Jews were still alive.Y.U.: Did it happen under Smetona’s rule?Witness: No, during the Soviet period.Y.U.: In about 1940?Witness: Yes. They lived together as a normal family. Fortunately, they didn’t have children.Y.U.: Did they have children?Witness: No, fortunately they didn’t.Y.U.: Did her husband take revenge after he came back?Witness: Yes, he started collecting them one by one and…Y.U.: You said you were watching that from a hill. Was it far?Witness: No. Not as far as the distance to these animals. Everything was clearly visible, because there was no forest yet, but just a plain field.Y.U.: Are there any traces left?Witness: No. Nobody exhumed her. At first, the grave was visible, but later the area was ploughed when collective farms were established.Y.U.: Thank you.Witness: You are welcome. Everything was left as it was.

Baraučiškė village, Seirijai district, LithuaniaOn September 11, 1941, a unit from the 1st Battalion, commanded by Bronius Norkus and Juozas Obelenis, arrived in Seirijai from Alytus. Local members of the Lithuanian self-defense unit, identifiable by their white armbands, marched the Jewish population to the killing site in Baraučiškės Forest, approximately 3 kilometers from Seirijai, and guarded them during the executions. Men were taken to the site first and shot from the edges of pits into which they had been placed. Women and children were subsequently taken to the site and shot in a separate pit. According to the Jäger Report, 953 Jews were murdered in Seirijai on September 11, 1941: 229 men, 384 women, and 340 children.

Broad Daylight. The Secret Procedures behind the Holocaust by Bullets. La Vergne: Arcade Publishing.

Memorial to the 953 Jews murdered in Baraučiškė Forest near Seirijai, Lithuania, on September 11, 1941.